Thursday, January 05, 2006

Sola Scriptura Discussion from CathApol

Sola Scriptura

A discussion with Scott (BigScott) and Dave (Emanon)
January 5, 2006

[21:17] <BigScott> I just started reading White's book on SS
[21:17] <Emanon-> which book was that?
[21:19] <Emanon-> a new one?
[21:22] <Emanon-> not sure if I ever read one of his specifically on the topic
[21:24] <BigScott> sorry, phone call, back now
[21:27] <BigScott> White's book is from 2004, entitled "Scripture Alone"
[21:28] <BigScott> when I first started reading it, I couldn't believe what I was reading...
[21:28] <BigScott> it was so bad
[21:29] <BigScott> he goes into a bit more as I'm reading on... so I'll reserve judgment - but the opening "3 Arguments" were pathetic.
[21:30] <Emanon-> I just checked I don't have that book by White
[21:34] <Emanon-> but SS is ok by me
[21:35] Bible` [~Bible@203-59-101-231.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #CathApol
[21:36] <Emanon-> hi Bible
[21:36] <BigScott> bible is a bot
[21:37] <Emanon-> ok
[21:37] <BigScott> .drb luke 1:28
[21:37] <Bible`> BigScott, Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims Bible)
[21:37] <Emanon-> What problem do you have with SS?
[21:37] <BigScott> I'm working on a book
[21:37] <BigScott> :-)
[21:37] <Emanon-> let us say your biggest problem with it?
[21:38] <BigScott> well... lemme pick one...
[21:38] <BigScott> 1) It's not scriptural
[21:38] <Emanon-> pick the major one
[21:38] <BigScott> it's unheard of until about the 16th century
[21:39] <Emanon-> You would say that the bible says to believe Bible + tradition?
[21:39] <BigScott> most of the ECF's that we refer to were "Latin" Fathers - yet not a single one of them used the Latin words "sola scriptura"
[21:40] <BigScott> I would say the Bible tells us that the Church is built upon the foundations of the Apostles.
[21:40] <BigScott> The Apostles were given the authority to lead the Church
[21:41] <BigScott> and their authority can be infallible
[21:41] <Emanon-> I agree with apostolic succession (probably a bit different from you though)....but I don't agree about the infallible part
[21:42] <BigScott> the infallible part is quite scripturally sound
[21:42] <BigScott> "whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"
[21:43] <BigScott> unless error can be bound in heaven - they have infallible authority
[21:43] <Emanon-> bind and loosing I think refers to church membership & excommunication
[21:44] <BigScott> the Bible says "whatsoever" - not merely church membership and excommunication - in fact those things aren't even mentioned when that authority is given.
[21:44] <BigScott> .drb matt 16:19
[21:44] <Bible`> BigScott, Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Douay Rheims Bible)
[21:44] <BigScott> .drb matt 18:18
[21:44] <Bible`> BigScott, Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Douay Rheims Bible)
[21:44] <Emanon-> that would be to say, whatever that the church accepts as its members through faith alone in Christ remain so..but those that are 'loosed' or excommunicated by the valid body of Christ, can be considered not a true part of the body of Christ, i.e. lost
[21:45] <Emanon-> that's how I see it anyway
[21:45] <BigScott> even if we restricted it to that limited interpretation (I believe it can INCLUDE that interpretation, but is not limited to it) it's still "infallible"
[21:46] <BigScott> for that binding (and/or loosing) is in heaven as well
[21:46] <BigScott> can error be bound or loosed in heaven?
[21:46] <BigScott> even if we only apply it to church membership?
[21:46] <Emanon-> I think you are stretching 'binding' to include any statement any church official wants to make and I think that is a stretch
[21:47] <BigScott> well, aside from that (I think you're adding words to Scripture which aren't there) assuming your interpretation - can you answer the questions?
[21:47] <Emanon-> even applied to church membership in the RCC, I don't think anyone would claim that they know infallibly is anyone is saved
[21:48] <BigScott> so you're denying the Church has the authority to bind or loose?
[21:48] <Emanon-> so, regarding church membership or binding in RCC, infallibility is moot
[21:48] <Emanon-> no, I think it does
[21:48] <BigScott> you're not answering the questions
[21:49] <BigScott> <BigScott> can error be bound or loosed in heaven?
[21:49] <BigScott> <BigScott> even if we only apply it to church membership?
[21:49] <Emanon-> Yes, I think the Church has the authority to bind and loose
[21:49] <BigScott> is that binding and loosing so bound and loosed in heaven as well?
[21:50] <Emanon-> are you asking that if a church excommunicates someone that this implies infallibly that the individual is lost?
[21:51] <BigScott> no, I'm asking if "whatsoever" is bound by the Church is also bound in heaven?
[21:52] <BigScott> let's not assume "Catholic Church" just yet.
[21:52] <Emanon-> regarding human souls, I don't think the church in infallible in 'binding' them...that is, when we accept someone as a Christian based upon their profession of faith, sometimes we err and have to excommunicate them when they apostacise
[21:52] <Emanon-> apostasize
[21:53] <Emanon-> however its spelled
[22:06] <BigScott> so... even though you apply this authority solely to church membership - it doesn't apply?
[22:09] <Emanon-> it doens't apply infallibly...if you mean by that that we can say at each instant that any person on the formal roles of a church is absolutely saved
[22:09] <BigScott> so, let me get this straight....
[22:10] <BigScott> The Bible tells us that "whatsoever" they shall bind, shall be bound in heaven. You apply that solely to church membership, but when push comes to shove, it doesn't apply.
[22:10] <BigScott> it's not bound in heaven
[22:10] <BigScott> right?
[22:11] <BigScott> you asked for a "major" one - and I believe that exposes a major flaw right there.
[22:12] <Emanon-> yes, I don't think the church is infallible
[22:12] <BigScott> either the Church has authority to bind and/or loose - or it doesn't.
[22:12] <Emanon-> so you would be saying then that if one is a member of the RCC then they are absolutely saved?
[22:13] <BigScott> Remember, you said this too: <Emanon-> Yes, I think the Church has the authority to bind and loose
[22:13] <BigScott> No, I never said that
[22:14] <BigScott> do you stand by what you said earlier?
[22:14] <BigScott> 5<Emanon-> Yes, I think the Church has the authority to bind and loose
[22:15] <BigScott> ??
[22:15] <Emanon-> BigScott: so you do not apply the verse to binding or loosing souls in an eternal sense?
[22:16] <BigScott> You can just call me "Scott" "BigScott" is a nickname.
[22:16] <Emanon-> ok
[22:16] <BigScott> Your name is Dave, right?
[22:17] <BigScott> I'll answer your question, please answer mine too.
[22:17] <BigScott> I apply Matt 16:19 and 18:18 to "whatsoever" is bound by the Church.
[22:17] <Emanon-> while I could certainly stand to do some research on the particular passage in question as I haven't really studied it that much, as far as I know it does refer to binding and loosing regarding salvation...but only in the sense that the church and her ministries is the vehicle whereby we are saved, I don't think infallibility in this is implied
[22:18] <Emanon-> yes, Dave
[22:18] <Emanon-> are souls bound by the church?
[22:18] <BigScott> some are
[22:19] <BigScott> When the Church has infallibly named someone a "Saint" that is bound on earth and in heaven as well.
[22:19] <BigScott> The Church does not bind souls to hell - that's God's job.
[22:20] <Emanon-> so the vast majority of folks are not bound?
[22:20] <BigScott> for some the Church has recognized them as Saints - for whatever the reason (part of the "whatsoever") and those Saints are infallibly known by the Faithful as Saints in heaven.
[22:20] <BigScott> not by the Church.
[22:21] <Emanon-> ok
[22:21] <BigScott> they may recognize some for their example
[22:21] <BigScott> others for their miraculous lives
[22:21] <BigScott> but once bound on earth, it is bound in heaven... just as Scripture tells us.
[22:22] <BigScott> excommunication is not an infallible binding
[22:22] <Emanon-> how many 'Saints' are there?
[22:22] <BigScott> and an excommunicant can still be considered a Catholic, and still obliged to their "Sunday Obligation" etc.
[22:23] <Emanon-> I agree...they might repent and return (the purpose of the excommunication)
[22:23] <BigScott> an excommunicant cannot partake in the Sacraments, save the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, for they are not in "communion" with the Church.
[22:24] <BigScott> the "way back in" is through the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.
[22:24] <Emanon-> yes
[22:24] <BigScott> as for your question "how many saints are there" - I do not know, off-hand.
[22:24] <BigScott> but I'm sure there are many more than have been so declared/bound as such.
[22:24] <Emanon-> probably not more than 10,000 are there?
[22:25] <Emanon-> or a few thousand
[22:25] <BigScott> well, the "Holy Innocents" are not individually named, but are considered saints
[22:26] <Emanon-> who are hte holy innocents?
[22:28] <BigScott> those are the ones murdered by Herod.
[22:29] <BigScott> .drb matt 2:16
[22:29] <Bible`> BigScott, Matthew 2:16 Then Herod perceiving that he was deluded by the wise men, was exceeding angry: and sending killed all the menchildren that were in Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. (Douay Rheims Bible)
[22:30] <BigScott> the first martyrs for Christ
[22:32] <BigScott> back to your statement... "I don't think infallibility in this is implied"
[22:33] <BigScott> if it is bound on earth AND is bound in heaven - unless you believe error can be bound in heaven, infallibility is not only "implied" - it is explicitly stated.
[22:35] <BigScott> whatever you restrict the application of these verses to, infallibility is clearly stated.
[22:36] <Emanon-> well, in a sense it is infallible...but only in the sense that when the church truly accepts a true believer upon his profession of faith, then, as a true believer (elect), he is infallibly bound in heaven
[22:36] <Emanon-> so all the true believers are infallibly bound in heaven, put it that way
[22:36] <BigScott> you're changing the wording a bit though
[22:37] <Emanon-> the church errs, obviously since the discipline of excommunication exists
[22:37] <BigScott> you're making it the believers themselves doing the binding.
[22:37] <BigScott> that's not what the Scripture says.
[22:38] <BigScott> certainly there have been errors by men IN the Church - but none, I repeat, NONE of those errors have ever been infallibly bound.
[22:38] <BigScott> but back to the point...
[22:39] <BigScott> you have affirmed that the Church "in a sense" is infallible.
[22:39] <BigScott> so much for the Scriptures being the SOLE infallible source.
[22:40] <BigScott> for the Scriptures explicitly tell us that there is ANOTHER infallible source.
[22:40] <BigScott> "sola" scriptura is refuted.
[22:41] <BigScott> The definition White uses is "The Scriptures are the SOLE infallible rule of faith for the Church."
[22:42] <BigScott> maybe you don't agree with White there? That's OK too.
[22:42] <BigScott> :-)
[22:42] <Emanon-> well, of course, I am saying that the infallibility exists only to the extent that the reformed doctrine of election exists...so really, I'm just saying that God is infallible
[22:42] <Emanon-> I'd agree with White on that
[22:43] <BigScott> but you just denied what White professes/defines!
[22:43] <BigScott> 5<Emanon-> well, in a sense it is infallible...
[22:43] <BigScott> what is the "it" you're refering to?
[22:44] <BigScott> the subject we were discussing was the Church.
[22:45] <Emanon-> I'm saying that I agree with White that the Scriptures are the only rule of faith for the church
[22:46] <BigScott> White doesn't say that
[22:46] <Emanon-> add SOLE infallible
[22:46] <BigScott> He testifies that the Church has authority...
[22:46] <Emanon-> or whatever you said above
[22:46] <Emanon-> <BigScott> The definition White uses is "The Scriptures are the SOLE infallible rule of faith for the Church."
[22:47] <BigScott> but you affirmed "in a sense" the Church is also infallible.
[22:47] <BigScott> are you denying that now?
[22:49] <BigScott> It's OK to change your mind... but you pretty much invalidate Matt 16:19 and 18:18 if you do.
[22:50] <Emanon-> I was saying that the sense was only in that the binding is only infallible if the individual is elect
[22:51] <BigScott> right, so you invalidate Matt 16:19 and 18:18 - for it's not the Church which binds - but the individual by their own confession.
[22:52] <BigScott> Jesus told the Apostles, "Whatsoever YOU SHALL BIND..."
[22:52] <Emanon-> its God that binds, through the church....
[22:52] <BigScott> God (Jesus) gave that authority to these men.
[22:53] <Emanon-> God's binding in infallible (election), the church through which God's decision are made however is not itself infallible
[22:53] <Emanon-> else, there would be no such things as excommuniction
[22:54] <Emanon-> or reconciliation
[22:54] <BigScott> excommunication exists expressly because men fail
[22:54] <Emanon-> which are just ways of saying that the church is coming to recognize what God is doing in that individual
[22:54] <BigScott> reconcilliation exists expressly because men fail
[22:55] <Emanon-> but the churches have originally accepted them as believers
[22:55] <BigScott> regardless of the spin - the Church has been given this authority by God.
[22:55] <Emanon-> if they excommunicate, they have a change of heart regarding that individual
[22:56] <BigScott> excommunication happens when an individual has a change of heart - and the Church makes it clear this individual is not in communion with the Church.
[22:56] <BigScott> again, an excommunication is NOT an infallible statement.
[22:57] <BigScott> no one has been infallibly excommunicated.
[22:57] <Emanon-> I agree
[22:58] <Emanon-> or infallibly saved by church decree either, I would say
[22:58] <BigScott> the concept of excommunication and infallibility are not the same thing
[22:58] <Emanon-> we'd disagree on that
[22:58] <BigScott> but you just agreed with that!
[22:59] <BigScott> <BigScott> again, an excommunication is NOT an infallible statement.
[22:59] <BigScott> <BigScott> no one has been infallibly excommunicated.
[22:59] <BigScott> <Emanon-> I agree
[22:59] <BigScott> and I agree with you... <Emanon-> or infallibly saved by church decree either, I would say
[22:59] <Emanon-> I agree that no one has been infallibly excommunicated (declared by church statements to be reprobate)
[23:00] <BigScott> a person infallibly declared to be a saint is not saved BY that declaration - the declaration is a recognition by the Church of something that has already happened.
[23:01] <BigScott> St. Augustine has been recognized by the Church to be in heaven.
[23:01] <Emanon-> yes, I understand
[23:01] <BigScott> ok
[23:01] <Emanon-> I disagree, but I understand your viewpoint
[23:01] <BigScott> you disagree that St. Augustine is in heaven?
[23:02] <Emanon-> no, I think he is there
[23:03] <Emanon-> just that I cannot claim infallibility in that opinion
[23:03] <BigScott> I don't claim an infallible opinion, but I believe that the Church has so bound this on earth, so it is so bound in heaven.
[23:04] <Emanon-> yes, I understand
[23:04] <BigScott> so... did Jesus (God) give men this authority, or not?
[23:07] <Emanon-> he gave them the charge of running the church and admitting members into God's covenant and of excommunicting them if they come to think that they are apostates, but he did not give infallibility to any group of people or to an individual
[23:07] <BigScott> I'll take that as a "no"
[23:08] <BigScott> so... even if these men bind something on earth, it is NOT bound in heaven, right?
[23:09] <BigScott> get the eraser out and erase Matthew 16:19 and 18:18.
[23:09] <Emanon-> did he imbue any man with infallibility, no
[23:09] <BigScott> these verses explicitly state that "whatsoever" THEY bind on earth IS bound in heaven.
[23:10] <Emanon-> not infallibly, no
[23:10] <BigScott> so, they CAN bind it on earth - but they MIGHT be binding in error, thus error can be bound in heaven. (that's the logical end to your argument)
[23:10] <Emanon-> to the extent that true beleivers are meant in this 'binding' then I'd agree it is infallible...but we know that there are tares and wheats in the church
[23:12] <Emanon-> that's not the logical end of my argument....we see binding differently, that's all
[23:12] <BigScott> if it is bound on earth AND bound in heaven - either it's infallible OR error can be bound in heaven.
[23:13] <BigScott> you can't escape this.
[23:14] <Emanon-> but, as I said, I've never studied the passage as intensely as I should...
[23:14] <BigScott> I'll accept that for now...
[23:14] <BigScott> consider what I've said though...
[23:14] <BigScott> I believe there's a major hole there in sola scriptura.
[23:15] <BigScott> for if what I'm saying is correct - AND - we accept that error cannot be bound in heaven, then whatsoever they bind is infallibly bound.
[23:15] <Emanon-> well, SS is the presupposition of my faith...my faith would be like yours if Scripture+tradition were my apriori
[23:16] <BigScott> and we must remember, this charism of infallibility is not widely utilized.
[23:16] <Emanon-> by that last statement do you mean that the RCC does not make many infallible statements?
[23:17] <BigScott> yes
[23:17] <Emanon-> ok
[23:17] <BigScott> most Protestants, I feel, put too much emphasis on "infallibility"
[23:18] <BigScott> it's not utilized with every breath of the Church - and clearly there have been "errors" by men IN the Church, even popes.
[23:18] <Emanon-> they would be summed up in books like Denzinger & Ott, right...the infallible stuff
[23:19] <BigScott> not everything in Denzinger or Ott is infallible, but yes, those are good sources to "sum up" most infallible decrees.
[23:20] <Emanon-> how much of those compilations are infallible statements?
[23:20] <Emanon-> more than 50%?
[23:20] <BigScott> yes
[23:20] <Emanon-> 70%?
[23:20] <BigScott> where ever Ott clarifies with "de fide" that's an infallible teaching
[23:20] <BigScott> not his commentary, but the teaching that he comments on is.
[23:22] <Emanon-> ok, I see the 'de fides'
[23:22] <BigScott> I don't have mine in front of me... but I think there's also statements of "de cert" - which are not explicitly infallible, but have some "certitude"
[23:23] <BigScott> (they're close, but have not been infallibly "defined")
[23:23] <Emanon-> sent. certa.
[23:24] <Emanon-> almost infallible
[23:24] <BigScott> ;-) Thanks
[23:25] <Emanon-> God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to acheive eternal salvation
[23:25] <Emanon-> that would be a sent. certa. one
[23:26] <BigScott> right
[23:26] <BigScott> there can be discussion/debate on that one
[23:26] <Emanon-> wonder what sent.fidei proxima means?
[23:27] <BigScott> I believe the Latin abbreviations are explained either in the front or in an appendix
[23:27] <Emanon-> Despite men's sins God truly and earnestly desires he salvation of all men (sent. fidei proxima)
[23:28] <Emanon-> seems that would be defide, but guess not....God might not actually desire the salvation of all men
[23:29] <BigScott> A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
[23:29] <Emanon-> yea, seems he ought to have that explained, can't find it
[23:30] <Emanon-> so, the reformed view might be true after all
[23:30] <BigScott> that's from Ott
[23:30] <BigScott> I found it online
[23:30] <Emanon-> yes, from Ott
[23:30] <BigScott> http://www.trosch.org/the/ottintro.htm
[23:34] <BigScott> I should get going... please do study up on Matt 16:19 and 18:18
[23:35] <BigScott> in Matt 16 Jesus is speaking solely to Peter, in 18 He's speaking to the Apostles as a group.
[23:35] <Emanon-> ok, I must be going too...night
[23:35] <Emanon-> thannks for the chat
[23:36] <BigScott> good night, and God bless.
[23:36] Emanon- [Emanon@69.7.101.28] has quit IRC (Quit: If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant.)
*** Log file closed: 1/5/2006 11:40:38 PM